Tosin and I go deep on the very nature of our existence....checkout his music in a specially curated ‘just for this episode’ Playlist on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/user/1210407742/playlist/6fJOgVc7YWv0FZsXMKQxoh?si=BWpwN7gCT8Wkk-RuTBwHRA
📸 by Randy Edwards
Tosin and I go deep on the very nature of our existence....checkout his music in a specially curated ‘just for this episode’ Playlist on Spotify https://open.spotify.com/user/1210407742/playlist/6fJOgVc7YWv0FZsXMKQxoh?si=BWpwN7gCT8Wkk-RuTBwHRA
📸 by Randy Edwards
[inaudible] name's picked on taste. Is it? Chris Johnson,
Speaker 2:episode 11. Tosin Abasi animals as leaders. One of my absolute favorite guitarist on the planet. We talk about Pete Guitar picks and Metaphysics listened to his music on the players pick podcast playlist
Speaker 3:on Firefox. I've given you the four 25th. Yeah, no, no. This is the brand new flow for 20. It's a 4.2.
Speaker 4:This is like, like those
Speaker 3:pictures are kind of, yeah. It's like in that sense where it's a, it's a plot. It's like[inaudible].
Speaker 5:Wow. Scott, it feels, it's like the neck though. Uh, so in a way that your asymmetrical neck and like the extra grip and that way you don't have to close it.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So these are a vibe, like I fucked around with some like super thick picks in the past. The beveling I think is really where you experienced like a different engagement of the string. And so with a really thick one you have quite a bit of surface contact on the pick and insurance. Yeah. And it's got, it's got weight to it too. Like Nuno was telling me you hated wearing rings when he played. He would never wear them. And then he kind of like start wearing this one ring and then one day he went on stage with audit and he was like, what the fuck? And he realized that the ring was like a noticeable little counterweight. So when he was like, oh, and he's like, now he plays with it. Yeah. So having a bit of, you know, little heft. Yeah. It gives you, it anchors you in some way, you know, versus like some of these virtually have no way. So that's all. I mean it's good, but it's only about these all look like they have some value to someone. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like first when people were really trying to play, it's like if you're just doing this, that's chill too. And you need the right pick for that. But yeah, this shit is about like, I'm playing one fucking note at a time. It's so sharp and it's so stiff.
Speaker 5:Uh, but I can't wait. I mean, limits is going to be, he's really stoked actually on that. Um, I have hated this. Pick the, the, the tour text version of this is all town of hated. The, the, the ones that are, I'm like, that is the longest fucking pick, right. Looks like so short. It's so sharp and it just like it, there's so much opportunity for failure basically because it's, you can have this, I mean, you can be this far in the string easily,
Speaker 6:you know, and you don't need to be that deep, you know, like you need to be chopped up, you know, but, but I guess, you know, it's the, it's the more precise player, uh, is able to do that. I just, that's why the flow is like the opposite thing because it bowls out and keeps you above, like above the string, you know, at the same time, like a jazz three shape. You can comparison
Speaker 4:[inaudible]
Speaker 6:[inaudible] acts a little bit of a depth gauge. Yeah. Well, at least one of those, uh, the players pick podcast, episode 11 with Towson and a Bossy
Speaker 4:Thompson Applebee Thompson[inaudible] token or Rossie Tobin at Rossi. I like that. Like my name, people mess up my name all the time, start lighter or whatever like that. Like Tobin Ordinance, either do it or even read interviews and like there'll be like Tobin and be like, this is print. And you've seen my name in print. Like whoa.
Speaker 6:Like you probably have my email. Yeah. And it says very clearly what my name is.
Speaker 4:Yeah. It happens all the time. So then we started messing around with just like moaning mispronunciations and Tony, Tony
Speaker 3:told me about, see Tony us. So we started doing a generation ads. We were in Long Island. He had only a bossy from long island. He plays guitar. It's pretty good. He's all right. Bye. See? Yeah,
Speaker 6:he plays the notes. It goes to, we believe we, we, we let them do it. What do you want? That's cool. What do you want this? Well, you're uh, you're neck deep in the hole like guitar saying now like, and it seems like it's, we're kind of on an uptick at the moment. Do you want to talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 4:Well, you know, in general it's definitely like there was a spark of inspiration to make my own shape and I was with diving as at the time and spent two years prototyping with them. Not because it takes two years, but because the space between the iterations when you're working with a large company like that can be literally a quarter or a year. So if you need to make one small change, you might have to wait three, four months to get the next iteration. So I began to, you know, feel like maybe there was a better
Speaker 7:circumstance or scenario where I could be, you know, creating guitars and I have a nice relationship. I had been with them for over a decade, but I definitely felt like, man, it'd be cool to not just have to do one each strain fanned fret and maybe offer six strings or maybe offer a seven or maybe do the same shape and a hall. So I was just like, eventually it culminated in me like finding the right moving parts to strike out on my own.
Speaker 4:But the past year has been interesting in that regard. On the production level, but we're, we're,
Speaker 7:we're back on top. We have new manufacturing rover Jackson, we're going to be at ma'am.
Speaker 4:Those guitars. Some cool surprises. So cool. Um, so yeah. Shit's cool. That's good. It's moving. Yeah. Nice.
Speaker 6:Well, uh,
Speaker 4:I'm curious, um,
Speaker 6:where did your relationship with
Speaker 4:guitar picks start? Where did it begin? And like, can you take us through like
Speaker 6:maybe who gave it to you or like, you know, what you remember, if you remember what it was
Speaker 4:like, how many pics have you gone to look and styles and pics. Have you gone through to get to where you're at now? No one has ever asked me this question. Yes. What? I've been asked a lot of questions. What are you doing here?
Speaker 7:Underwear it. Whoa. Not Yours. Dammit. Um, what was I going to say? No, the Pixel. It's super, that's a good question because when I first started playing Tarek, I just use a guitar pick. It was like, you know, the fender toward text pics or they're like cellulitis shells, tortoise shell, and they're just like the free ones in a bowl at your local store. To me that that was a guitar pick and it was just like, it didn't matter. I used to use a penny. Well yeah, like if I, if I didn't have a pick, I mean I sucked at guitar, you know what I'm saying? I didn't get the strong power chords and if I had lost all my pigs, I find a penny him play with that. Um, it wasn't until I discovered guys like Paul Gilbert
Speaker 4:and on Malmsteen and John Petrucci, I think it was John Petrucci that I discovered the jazz three
Speaker 7:and then I was like, oh, this makes sense. And I went and bought some and that became my pitch,
Speaker 4:the choice for years in here. And then with the extended range guitar, you get like into, you know, the thickness of the strings that almost gets into base territory. The gate is just go up and you start to feel like there may be better ways of engaging that string. Then with like a 1.4, like, you know, maybe a pig that has a bit of flex in it works better. Again, it's a really thick string. Now I've seen bass players use kind of like maybe like a 0.73 or something, you know, and it kind of not flops, but it reminds me of like a, uh, like a plain card in between the spokes of a bicycle wheel. Yes. Yeah. And that's, and when you're doing a lot of the economy picking and sweet picking, it's like sometimes it's nice to have to pick flow like that. Right, right.
Speaker 7:So I, I started experimenting with thinner picks and we were doing like the black guy stuff.
Speaker 4:Um, yeah.
Speaker 7:And then, but yeah, it's always been for me, I liked the ones that are smaller than standard size that are close to the jazz three thing. But I've messed around with various
Speaker 4:thicknesses and right now one of my playing, now you're playing the prime tone, but what, what size is, it's like a 1.4. Yeah. So it's a pretty thick pick. It's a, it's more of a basic dress, three thickness, but it's got that speed bevel on the ground that the whole beveling thing to me is sick and you gotta type of timber and like attack
Speaker 7:off the string and it also flows in a certain way. So to me that's like my, that's my thing like with me for the past few years actually.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Cause you, well we did and it will spit back out. It's probably been three, almost three and a half years ago that we did the animals leader pick a, which is a 73 thickness, uh, primed on jazz, jazz, three x out. Right. So like, so it's the larger one. You and you and Javier settled on the larger pick at the time, although you had been more of a jazz three, the smaller,
Speaker 7:and this, there's a weird thing someplace I talked to you like just switch up their pickups nowhere and they're like, yeah, no, I'm using these in a, it's kind of like maybe the contrast is what you know, like I don't think there's just one tool for the job. And I've definitely talked to a few players who kind of are still moving that needle around. Like for one year they might be on thick picks and then the next year they might be on thin picks and then they might, do you know what I mean? Yep.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I do. Especially after, uh, with us releasing these flow picks this last year, uh, I gravitate towards the 73 in the 88 because there are close to the animals, 73 page. Right. And that's that snap and there's a brightness to them and I love the grip and the whole thing. Uh, but in the process, uh, I had to go through and test all the different gauges and all the different battles and I'm like, man, I can settle on any one of these at any given day. Like, am I just pick one up and I just relax and act like there's not another 20 different faculty, five different pics on my death to choose from. Just play with that pick, I'll tune in. Totally. Um, and then, then it was just a listening and watching, uh, the response to these picks. And there was like, we only went up to 3.0 and uh, somebody was like, man, if they just did like a four point or maybe like one of those old school 5.0 like she big pigs that was like really comfy and in the hand, you know, I was like, Oh man, I'll talk to the boss and see, see what he would do it. And that's how the four 20 came. That's what we did before, before 20. And so we wanted to kind of just put it in the, in the realm of, you know, like for those guys but not go crazy crazy cause it's, it's, it's, it's probably you you'll end up seeing like it's probably one of the more usable fit pits because of the bevel is so expertly done.
Speaker 7:Nice. Yeah. I feel like you're running the first fold thickness where it's not, it's not too crazy, but like, like it's an interesting feel and I think like if I was playing like a hollow body, I think of it like that. No, it has to go to us for some reason. That's strumming, strumming. If I'm doing single note jazz stuff.
Speaker 5:Sure, sure. Yeah. I've had a handful of, uh, the Django type folks picked these and go, yeah, that's totally what we're looking for. Makes Sense. So do you remember, uh, what, who was it that got you into guitar? Like was there a dad or uncle or somebody just
Speaker 7:kind of do it on your own? My friend Steve Gordon when I was like in middle school and I was in elementary school at the time, um, he was a little bit older than he was taking the tar lessons and I would notice the guitar in his living room and we were just into like playing street fighter and like rollerblading and stuff. Sure. But I was already in school orchestra playing clarinet, so I knew how to read music and I understood subdivision and key signatures as I like, but clarinet was not relevant to any of the music I listened to. I was listening to whatever's on MTV. I'm playing this random woodwind instrument, so I see it as guitar. I'd be like, I just asked him to show me something one day and he showed me like a bit of Metallica one, you know the engine. Yeah. We're just such a, that ref is funny cause it's so, uh, it's beautifully simple. It's iconic, but it's simple enough for like a beginner to learn. But it's strong enough to be kind of like this. You hear those for a few nights. It's got a handful of, there's something to that. So I've ever tried to make my fingers cooperate and kind of liking that challenge. And then I forgot I lived it. I would come back over and like kind of fiddle with it, you know, periodically until the point where I was like, I asked my dad to get me a good time and he got me like a, like a strap knock off. But I, I'm realizing now that playing guitar is a flow state. Like it's a state, it's like a psychological or it's a state of consciousness where you can forget about the passage of time or you can be unaware of how much time has passed. You feel like, uh, a coherence, your attention to so dialed in and you already kind of like in the state of, you know, it's like a flow state cyclists experienced this, like marathon runners, like dancers. It's just this mental space to where you're in the flow. That's where it comes from. I only realized this now because I started thinking about things in this way because I'm a seeker of flow states. It's like why? Like, you know, high speed, I like driving, you know, like on the track you're literally like feeling like lateral gs, you're feeling, you know, like braking distances, you're, you're, you're using visual, like spacial intelligence as along with like reaction time. You're managing fear, you know, impulse response and look, the confluence of all those inputs creates like a unified state. And I also experience it when I'm doing like weightlifting and trying to like do a complex lift, you know, so I'm like, oh wait, I just like flow states, you know? And so the guitar, I think, emerge to me is one of those rabbit holes that you don't even question like you just like or down to spend multiple hours, like struggling to deal anything
Speaker 5:digging in. Yeah. It's interesting when I hear you talk about that too, because, uh, I, the float, I can eventually get to the flow state through multiple different ways. You know, I'm into yoga and like, and running and stuff like that too. Um, but I, I almost experiment as you, as you tell me about your different experiences. I see. I see it as like with, it's kind of like the narrowing of Focus, right? So you're the narrowing of focus into this one thing, letting all these other things fall away, especially in the driving, especially because you're, there's that fear element, right? You might have a little bit of fear element in your weightlifting or trying something new and like an version or like in a yoga practice or something like that. But the fee, the fear probably isn't as much there in the guitar until you're two. You're trying out new material on stage or something like that, right? MMM.
Speaker 7:And fear is on the continuum, I think of challenge or uncertainty. And so I feel like at the far end of that continuum is like fear for your life. Like am I going to drive into this wall? I turned three at 130 miles an hour, or am I going to drive off of this mountain? You know what I mean? But then there's also, you know, if you scale, if you go to the other pole, it's kind of like, I think that is visceral. And so it, it demands a level of like focus and there's a consequence, right? But if we're talking about missing him lift, there's also a consequence or 100% of balance being there's also a consequence or doing the lick. There's a slight element of fear and not achieving it. And so when the, when you have to demand something of you body, it's an interesting experience because it's like you are in control, but you don't know if you're buying is going to cooperate fully. And he spent all this time strengthening the connection between your consciousness and having your body and do exactly what you're wanting to consciousness to do. And that relationship is like a conversation that not everyone is consciously having. Yoga is an art form that is like dead set on establishing a relationship between consciousness and body. But these, it's available in these other ways and like, yeah, learning the violin and you're like, oh my I too wide and my intonation and your, your brain knows that, but your fingers aren't cooperating. And until they are, do you know what I mean? And it's this conversation know you can strengthen that relationship between mind and body. And so if the guitar is totally a pursuit like that, you know,
Speaker 5:I agree. Yeah. That the refinement of, uh, like, just like when you went in a young, as a young person, you're, you know, you're learning to walk and you're even refining like what it is that keeps you up. Right. You know, as a kid, as a kid, and you're not like cognitively like trying to figure it out too hard and it's just something that you're innately drawn to do. But uh, uh, in this scenario it's, it's, I could actually think the fear factor I should, does play into the lift. And now that you say that, because I totally just, especially in performance at home, it's like one thing, but like, or in a studio, that's another thing too. Cause you're wasting time.[inaudible] shores for you.
Speaker 7:Yeah. We call it, I've heard it called the red lights in the totally. So I'm recording you and you totally know how to play this thing. Yeah. But as soon as you hit me, you see me hit record, you're like, uh, when he got to do 15 takes to get it right. Yeah. And then when I'm not recording, you totally nailed it. Yep. So this happens like no matter if you've done four albums are zero albums, it's kind of funny. Yeah. But yeah, like there's a net look like the subjective experience is interesting because there's a metal layer to where there's you watching you. So you're like, come on dude, you can do this. You're like, you're having a conversation with yourself. But if you think about, that's actually weird because there aren't multiple use, right? But a lot of the things we do require a perspective on ourselves or subjectively were we're scared, but mentally or you know, mentally we were like, there's nothing to be afraid of but we can't defeat the fear that's in our bodies. And it's like that's part of, there's mastery in learning, you know, guitar or whatever. But there's mastery of the self, which is mastering fear of mastering all these things. And it's the guitar, it's like a weird little like portal into the fact that we are mastering things all over the place and there are things you can't do until you can do them with application of the will. You know? So it's, it totally emerged as this like almost this like analogy to like my wider life. It's like, dude, I remember when I couldn't play a power cord. I remember when I now I can sleep pick, you know, and it's the same me and like those little victories it, yeah, isn't it? It's like, it's like me 2.0 or something.
Speaker 5:I mean the, the you that could play a power cord
Speaker 7:[inaudible]
Speaker 5:I mean that, that body, that brain has been totally remember
Speaker 7:then replaced multiple times. Like literally, literally. That's true. Well, okay, so then I guess it isn't me, but then again to the question, what constitutes you? Is it yourself? You know? Huh?
Speaker 5:This is a, this is a good, this is a really interesting, this is the kind of questions I like and I, and I'm interested in because, uh, I don't know if you, have you ever heard, have you seen that Kara? Kara was one, uh, like speech, like the youtube thing where he's talking about rock star. We seen this, I was just hanging out with Steph carpenter Deftones and he was like, we were gotten to this big Stoney talk, you know? And he was like, he was like Brah I started understanding God in a different way. W like after I had care us one, like preach it to me. And I was like, what really? It looks like, yeah, you're flipped it on. And it's this whole kind of a lecture about how he's like, okay, let's all I want you to look. Cause it was just what was laying around. Had a rockstar energy drinks like sticker, right? He's done it in other talks with other things, but he, uh, he hadn't, he held it up and he's like, look, okay, you guys didn't all read this. Like now without using your mouth, we're on the count of three. We're all going to say to ourselves a rock stuff. Right? And like, can you get to counts and, and you do it with him. And he's like, okay, you heard that, right? Like you heard yourself say, but your ears didn't hear it. Your mouth didn't move. What was that? That spoke and what was that? That hurt, you know? And he gets into this long thing and about about what is self a little bit, you know? And he translates it into the talking about the fifth dimension, the inner and the outer versus like, and he has all this kind of long thing, but it's really, really interesting like question that he's posing. It's like, like you and he's talking basically. That's how he understands and how stuff carpenter was telling me how he understands like God is people like it's the, it's the inner voice in all in all of us.
Speaker 8:Yeah. It will. It's that type of thing. Yeah. It's consciousness, which is fundamentally mysterious because we actually don't understand that. Where is it emanating from? Is it coming out of your brain? It was coming out of your gut. Is it a field that surrounds your whole body? What's the perimeter? Is it super wide? Is it super narrow? Is it like we don't have empirical answers for the phenomenon of consciousness and, but it actually is the most salient part of being a human is like your identity and the thoughts in your head and the feelings. And all these things, it's like, that's you. I mean, I could put your head in a jar and you know, longer have a body, but you don't have this, you'll still have a conscious experience. You know what I mean? And it's kind of like, yeah, so we're, we're in relationship to this thing that we don't fully understand, but it's completely intrinsic to our experience as humans. And you know, music is like one of these things that like totally turns on an on switch for consciousness and it's an outlet for consciousness. And it actually like is a magnet. Like we all resonate with certain music, you know, they're dead composers that we still talk about their songs that, you know what I mean? So we're as musicians, we're really playing in that playground of like consciousness. You know? It's like without being explicit about it, where we're really kind of channeling our consciousness through these tools to like kind of show ourselves to other people.
Speaker 5:That's actually part of one of my favorite things about music, especially instrumental music or music that doesn't weigh heavy on words is uh, the fact that it's, it's an expression because our experience as humans, it, you know, if you were to try to encapsulate it, you know, you could, you could categorize it as unethical, like unspeakable, like the, the grant experience because you can write your entire life and try to encapsulate your feeling or your experience, but you're going to fall short of the actuality of it. Right? Like it's, it's just a finger pointing to the moon. It's not the fingers, not the moon. You know, like you, you can't speak about that necessarily, but I can, we can point towards it with the words and, and with music and especially all different genres of instrumental music, I find that, uh, the expression of, of, of one's experience is actually more pure, you know, in that way because it's not divided by categorical, you know, phenomenon, which we, in our language,
Speaker 8:yeah. Language is a bit of a prison concepts. Totally necessary, but all shorter, like some of the most, well, you know when you get into the abstract and the infinite and the, you know what I mean, then yeah, our language, Suze ceases to be adequate to describe some of the most powerful experiences available to people. And so yeah, that's what I kind of want to make instrumental music because you escape words and then what the idea is to kind of like hit the listener, not on a verbal level of communication but on like that maybe emotional space but not emotional because of what I said. But because of what, what you're hearing, like it's interesting that melody and rhythm have an impact on your emotional state. Like W W why? So the certain order of certain notes divided in a beat has it that coherence distinguishes itself from noise. Right? So we can tell what's noise and what's being tonal too. What's a rhythm and what's a melody that's harming. And then beyond that, the organization of those notes has certain effects on our, our mental state, sad songs, happy songs like urgency, distress songs that make you want to dance and give you energy songs that you would play at like a funeral songs you worship too. Right? So it's really interesting that like there's the phenomenon of sound that the brain is in conversation with and it's different than language, but it's a type of communication, you know, so music and musicians are kind of like, it's kind of like a, I don't know, not like a magician, but there's like a
Speaker 5:oh, very much like, yeah, if not actually in a way, you know, because because there is, there is a conjuring, there is, uh, uh, you, you ended up being a conduit and like, uh, uh, I see it more as a channel, so to speak, for universal, like whatever particular incarnation is, is open to susceptible to, uh, and, and, and, and, you know, it's like you talk about, it makes me think, I've been reading, there's this, uh, these two really great audio books that got passed to me, uh, by Carlo Rovelli is, I think he's Italian guy. Uh, and he, he, he did this book, uh, called, uh, the order of time. And it's just incorrect. I mean, it's like blow your mind because it just starts off by, by reminding or telling you that we're at this point. It was only written a couple of years ago, released a couple of years ago. So it's fairly current and he's talking about, uh, kind of updating the world on quantum gravity and like, uh, and how it interacts in the quantum theory and how it interacts with Einstein's, uh, in general relativity and how the APP on the surface, they kind of don't work together. But then you go through the book and he's like, and this is how it, where they come together and all this stuff, right? But he starts off in this place come telling you like, we have the ability to measure time. So, uh, so precisely now that, uh, we know without a doubt that time moves slower, closer to the water's edge, time moves faster in the mountains, right? Like for the person that experienced as time and then it goes and there's all these different equations and like now the, they could set a time, he's on this table right here instead of time Pete piece here and within a few hours detect small discrepancy discrepancy. And that's, that's really micro versus the mountains and the sea, like atomic clocks or something. But then they go on to realize, uh, there is that part of the quantum thing that gets, uh, saved by Einstein's relativity is that there is no all pervading now in the universe. They figured out that there is no all pervading Matt. It's relative to each person experience in time. And you personally have your own time. Like there is literally like your own, like we're sharing a time right now, you know, but there's still an element about you and your flux, your, your vision, uh, as a, as a human being, as you move in, generate heat that produces a certain kind of time for you. So it's kind of interesting that sometimes we say, oh, well they're on their own time, you know, well, they'll show up on their own time, you know, these types of things and they, and that we find out that we're, uh, that we're, the time isn't actually general like outside of us, outside of the expense. It's not a, time isn't an it part of the equation. It's not a job objective phenomena that you can measure it. So where does time come? It comes from the experience of that and if it comes from the experience of relationship to things, right to, to the phenomenon of the world. So it was relativity, which is relative circles. So, so in, in music, circling back to music, it's an interesting thing to be a musician and playing with time and bringing rhythm and melody. So you're subdividing time up and giving emotive qualities to the time. Right? Because like, uh, like Alan Watts would always say it's like, you know, like for example, like for musicians or dancers, like if, if we were always looking for the quickest way than the best songs would be and done right, you would be, it'd be over with. It's like, but that's not it. We do it for the sake of doing it because the feeling of how, how kind of alleviate tests from the feeling of time so to speak and like there's a, it kind of lifts the burden a little bit depending on what you're listening to and what the intention is.
Speaker 8:Well that sounds like the close date thing. Totally.
Speaker 5:Because in that flow state, right, it feels timeless to some degree. Like you're not burdened by future past,
Speaker 8:you're not even, yeah. The passage of time season to be on your radar and you're so enrolled in what you're doing that it could have been 12 hours and 12 minutes. It's, you no longer are paying attention to time. Like you're above it, right? Yeah. Shit's wow.
Speaker 5:Well, and because if we're the ones that are actually generating the concept and the quality of, and then in, in of time, I mean, then it's kind of up to us to find a way outside or next to it, you know, through our team, through utilizing our, our, uh, abilities in relationship to the phenomena of the world. So like, and where we're at such an apex of human history right now, I'd be like, you know, like in, in, in a lot of ways, right? Whether there's a lot of negativity that comes with it.
Speaker 8:Well that can be part of it, but it's just like, how long has the store you're going to go? And it's, this happened really, but done. Do you know what I mean? There are thresholds that can be crossed that well make the previous period before seem like child's play. Like a pretty cool, like the plot hasn't has the plot started Mike, do you know what I'm saying? Like there could be, there could be advancements to like lifestyle fan or like you know, merging consciousness with technology that would make all periods before just be like a decidedly different. It's like yeah, that was before the event or that was before the threshold. You know what I'm saying? That singularity concept. Yeah. Which you know, slightly more specific but it's interesting when you're like, you know, we're at an apex, it's like buy a lot of metrics. We are, but then it's like we don't really know what season two, three, four, five and six are going to ring. So like have we, how far are we into the human story to[inaudible]
Speaker 6:yeah, I mean we could be, could be right at the end. It could be right.
Speaker 8:You might be at the beginning, I mean before there was electricity, you know there's kind of like, I mean the germ theory of disease or before literacy was prevalent or there's, there's so many thoughts, so many thresholds that humans have crossed that have like irrevocably changed what it means to be human or at least on a societal cultural level. Right. Which is basically what we are is who we are in relatively relativity to do. We know like sometimes I think about like if I was in the hunt, like a hunter gatherer society and no one had figured out true temperament or like, you know, Western harm me like music maybe as a thing that everyone in the village does and they use their voices to do it. But no one has strung up a guitar and like divided the fretboard up in these equal distance space to create scale. And so then no one is making, no one is composing music on a polyphonic level because there was no technology available to even like realize that. Right. And so like what we are is in constant conversation with what we allow ourselves to be through an expansion of what's possible, right? So humans are constantly expanding because of how we're pushing the boundaries of what's available to us.
Speaker 6:Can you imagine at each, each age two is probably thought the end was like, I mean we, we know that, we know that like from biblical times they like the end is not right. Like get your shit straight people because it's like it's all going to go to hell in a hand basket. Like, and here we all are these thousands of years later and so many ages in between and get with each advent of a new technology or new understanding, uh, you know, we have component guys and all these people like shunned further new found knowledge and understanding of the world we're living in and each one thinking on all this is it, we're done. Like that's why we do like apex. I'm like, yeah, I mean we think we fit as far as we know, you know, like we know a decent amount
Speaker 8:that all knowledge is incremental. Some of it like blows the doors wide open and we like once we discovered sub atomic particles or once we discovered, you know, before we had a germ theory of disease, we thought that like spirits or the reason like your baby died at the age of five or the reason you caught yourself to death. Like we didn't know it was like literally there are organisms that are like, well you can't see them with the naked eye but they are like abundant in public and they, they, they collect in certain like standing water or rotting meat or rotten fruit and like there's a lot of folk knowledge and that's where it's like this food tablet was of what to avoid and why. But no one really knew that. Like Eco lie was like, you know what I'm saying? And now there's a whole narrative layer
Speaker 7:removed because there was like, you're not possessed, you just have schizophrenia. Do you know what I'm saying? But before that it was,
Speaker 6:but it's interesting. I was just to play on the other side of that fence though. It's interesting to consider that because we, now that we know, we know so little, even though we know now, we know enough to know that we, that we can barely make sense, like it's tiniest sliver of the actual electromagnetic spectrum. So, so like, so what we can detect in comparison, uh, is, is just like this, you know, tiny little sliver and then there's this whole wide other scenario that could be affecting our scenario spirits, quote unquote, right? It could be all kinds of other phenomena that were, that are undetectable at this time. Totally. That could play a part in it. But now, not to get like ghost hunters on you, but like, you know, just saying that because we're at that place of quantum mechanics and understanding of things that are just not what we originally thought, they weren't, uh, that almost, you can almost go back and say, oh, well anything's possible.
Speaker 7:Well, you know, in a way there's a question mark and to fill the space with assumptions is one choice. But it definitely, I think you should have a healthy degree of skepticism but also a healthy degree of like, I don't fucking know, meaning like hundred humility. Like you really highlighted something where it's like we can monitor the spectrum of the electromagnetic spectrum spectrum of light and all this stuff with tools. But before that we just had our eyes and ears and we can see like less than 1 million of, you know what I'm saying? But now we have electron microscopes and we, I mean I think about the fact that like we're sitting here and there's Wifi signals, there's ultra violet light, there's like fucking, there's, there's,
Speaker 6:there's sunlight.
Speaker 7:Yeah, but the spectrum of sunlight available to us because it's like, but all this stuff is floating around and where effectively blind to it, we have tools that can measure it. But you just mentioned that those tools are also only so effective. And there, there, there may be on the continuum of reality, things that exceed our ability to measure that may actually blow away certain concepts we have now or expand our idea of what is quote unquote real. So in some of those things might actually circle back to sounding like miracles or sounding like supernatural or sounding like, so yeah, it's like,
Speaker 6:well there's a, it's oftentimes the one that has gone before the one that is, has found the next level looks like a messiah to the people that have no clue as to how you, like just for example, with you and guitar, right? Like the guy that just finds your music and it just picked up the guitar last week, looks inheres animals music and it's like, Dude, God liked Messiah. I, this is what I, this doesn't even make sense to me. Like this is alien, alien language. Yeah. You know, but it, because as soon as they attempt to understand like what it feels like, but because they can't, they can't see from a to B all the steps. Yeah. But then so, so then that's why there's like, there's the concept and there is like folklore around like beings that are outside of this are, you know, ability to detect, right. Like, again, that's, you know, you can get on assumptions and go that route. But there's, there's always like, seems like there's a little bit of like interesting kernels of potentiality and some of them,
Speaker 8:yeah, well I think you're highlighting, I don't think it's arbitrary that people are describing phenomenon to beings that are like either supernatural or above human. You know, like I think, and for a few reasons, I mean, but for one, most of what it means to be human is like what takes place in your mind. You, we were just talking about. Sure. Yeah. And even your sense of identity, like who are you? Well, if I'm living in feudal Japan than maybe I am, you know, I grow rice and the emperor exists and like I can't entity, there's all these things, right. Or if I live in, you know, Denmark in the year 2019 maybe I'm a coder and I'm also pan sexual. And I'm also like, these are new, these identities are new. You couldn't have been these things like so like even what it is to be a person whose relative to when you are being that person.
Speaker 6:That's the theory of relativity coming back around to,
Speaker 8:well that's a pretty adventurous application of it
Speaker 6:to find. I mean that to say that truth is relative is not a far stretch. Like your truth is relative to you and your experience and where you come from and how you've been conditioned. You know, it's, you know, my truth is relative and if they can prove that you have your own time and I have my own times and we're then we're definitely in a place of like rel relativism in a sense. Like it's hard to say what exactly is the real thing. I mean all the atoms of the things that we experience, including our own bodies are most are filled up with mostly empty space. Yeah. What, so that's all. I mean just that,
Speaker 8:well there's an irony to that tooth because like how viable is it? So like you know, there's the, there's the idea that we're all made of star dust, right? Because all matter emerge from a single point sling the point. Yeah. But like if I'm in traffic and my boss told me that if I'm late one more time I'm going to lose my job.
Speaker 6:But I've also made a star a strict but it's so that's what, that's what they call it paradox, right? Like yes and yes you are starting out and you're about to be fired. Stop being late. So like how viable is that? True.
Speaker 8:And you know what I mean and like have moments. It is but that moment is and isn't and the subjective experience is
Speaker 7:really funny because all you have to do is look up to realize that like you're on a sphere that's like traveling at like thousands of kilometers an hour. Like through space that's like surrounded by the thin thin atmosphere that created parameters that are like in the perfect conditions produce carbon based life and you somehow are member of a species of primate that somehow exceeds the intelligence of every other life form that's existed on the planet. Like through multiple mass extinctions. All you have to do is look up at the moon and be like, there is an endless void right outside of our atmosphere with heavenly bodies that are so, so, so immense in size that we don't even have numbers. They're like a Google team. Right. So then it's like, but meanwhile, like I just done my toe and I hope this girl texted me back. Right. So it was just like there's something about being Chris, Jonathan and Tosin Abasi that actually has to like mute. Yep. Put all that other shit on mutiny everywhere.
Speaker 6:Know a couple of really interesting things. So in that book with Carlo Ravelli, he uh, one of the kinds of things they get is that your, you have, everyone has a personal blur and it's like the blurring of, uh, you have to put a certain amount of stuff on mute. You have to, it has to be blurred to you too. To contain
Speaker 7:and brain does, it's, yeah, it's a frame rate. So all the things you do
Speaker 6:don't know, help make up who you are in a way like flower ignoring. It's your, your inability is, is, is actually what shapes you in a way.
Speaker 7:Yes. For the queue, for the humans experience, it seems that there's a, there's a wealth of information and, and stimulation that is actually like not helpful. Like it's good that I'm not aware of everyone of my mitochondria and myself. It's good that I'm not the my gut biome. It's not like a super present patriotic. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? But like, dude, that's like, that's what I mean. So these, these perspectives are so interesting simply because perspective matters where it's like you're mostly space, but you really could just punch me in the face and it won't feel like mostly punched me. But yeah,
Speaker 6:the parallel the predators, there's this like that's the things that I remember. Um, one of my favorite books is a, is the way of the peaceful warrior by Dan Millman I've ever had that was put out in the 70s and it's iconic classic riot. And it was one of the things that, uh, the teacher in that story, soccer Socrates tells Dan, he says like three things like paradox, humor and change. Like, so these are the things that are like pro, like prevalent all through life. And if you can learn to kind of spot them and, and, and go with them, like, then you'll, you'll always like be succeeding. You'll be on top of things like, you know, the Pr, the fact is that you're right,
Speaker 5:it's all mine.
Speaker 6:Okay. So, so that, that, that, that's part of what we're talking about, like your stardust, but you've got to take out the tracks bro. Oh, that's going to sustain like you got, you know, there's this, yes, you're a cosmetic thing. Yes. This is a mirror miracle year American, like everybody up. So, so go to work via on time, you know, like, uh, pay your bills. Uh, and then, you know, humor comes right after the paradox because how fucking funny is that shit? It's absurd. That's absurd. Right? So, so, and then the third piece is just, it's changed. Like it's always, it's always the word assault. And that's part of our being a time based being like an experience in generating that this experience of things passing and, and, and, and detecting and finding out that our, that our cells in our body actually yeah.
Speaker 5:Do reproduce themselves and that we as much as we might feel like almost the same person as that the person that was just struggling to play at the first nirvana lick or tune on a power cord or[inaudible] uh, you know, till now where there's all this other adaptive ability to this come in over long.
Speaker 8:Huh. Well I think, I think the idea that you're a different person because this your skin cells and all these things have cycled over in they're literally new cells is a partial truth because there is continuity and that you are evolving but like there's a continuity in like in the change and you can direct the change but you're not, you're not a completely different person. I'm sure there's like parts of your personality that were present when you were a child that are present now. Totally. This goes the same with ability, cognitive ability, physical ability, all these things. And now you can in your life increase your physical ability to the capacity that you have. But I will never outlive the greatest, you know, Russian, a big weightlifter, no matter how much I train and eat like him or whatever the case is. So like you're different in this beautiful sense that you can direct your evolution and a lot of ways there is kind of a ceiling on it unfortunately. Just because like, you know, there's an infinite headroom and everyone's talent and intelligence. It's just, it's just, is, it is. That's why we're talking about Einstein and not like a trillion other Einstein's. It's like certain consciousnesses like emerge as being like outliers in this, but it's like we're always, you're always in a fluid state of change, but there a continuity to it. Um, cause you're always, you, but you can always be a new, I know, it's like wow,
Speaker 6:memory, memory plays the main part in that, right? Because you did the fact that now, sure a few
Speaker 5:people that, that, that lose memory, that don't have great memory, um, choose not to remember, so to speak. You know, like, like find a way there. There's, uh, there's there, it's, it's, it's there as long as you have it right. As long as you're able to retain it, so to speak. But, uh, like, like Jim Carey, I don't know if you watched that. Uh, he saw what he did that whole, that when he did the thing, um, the comedy when he played the comedian, uh, what's his name? Oh, Andy. Andy Kaufman. Right. Like, so I don't know if there's a special on Netflix, uh, that's about the behind the scenes of him. Hah. Like playing Andy and how he stayed in character for so long and what he found out, like he never left character. So that whole time he wasn't Andy Kaufman and both different versions of Andy Kaufman and everybody had like lost their shit dealing with Jim Carrey because he was so tough to deal with being Andy Kaufman. But on the other side of it being, uh, interviewed about it, Jim's like, you know, I just, I, I lost myself a good long while and I, uh, it made me realize he, for him you was like, I don't think personality is fixed. Like I, I don't think, I think that, I think it's totally adaptive, malleable, malleable. That's like, especially actors that find that flow state into the other life, they have that experience more often than like I have a person that isn't necessarily trying to live double lives, right?
Speaker 7:Yeah. In order to turn it into different characters and it's like some sort of skill. Right? Right, right.
Speaker 5:So it can be trained, it can be conditioned into something where you own almost or maybe completely leave what was behind. And in some ways, you know, like thinking about it a caterpillar and butterfly, like how I, I'm curious like how we don't know, but how much does the butterfly retained from the experience of being catapulted?
Speaker 7:Yeah, that's an interesting question. The way I look at it by identity is that like it isn't purely like you're not purely socialized to be a certain way, but you're not purely a result of your like biology, but they have done psychological tests and there was some physiological, empirical, you know, observations that do say that like for instance you inherit a good degree of certain traits from your parents. It could be openness to experience experience or intelligence or neuroticism and these things do have genetic sort of biological reality. But then you can also defeat a lot of this stuff by like repeated behaviors. So like big new characters all the time. We're like facing fears or like pushing yourself. So there is a malady ability with being human that's totally real. But then there's also you are living in this body that wants to stay alive and reproduce and like be happy, quote unquote, you know, so, so it's like always this dance between like nature and nurture and all that shit. You know?
Speaker 5:That's actually a
Speaker 4:kind of as a good, good leading cause that would park part when I was, one of the things I like to ask is like a what for you? What, what do you, what does it take to like to be happy? Like what is like, what is to be happy, motivated, feeling, feel it in a feeling of balance, I guess. What, what, what does that look like for you? I mean, I think for everyone is different, but I think there are like, you know, there's like a hierarchy of needs, right? So are we talking about having this beyond well like obviously like food yeah.
Speaker 5:And shelter and all that Shit, right? Sure. Yeah. You can. Yeah. But I mean when I think about, I was letting you just interpret it however you want. Like, cause you're past the food and shelter thing when not talking about. Yeah. Uh, so, so in, in your current life, in your pervading now, what, what does it for you?
Speaker 4:Um, connection.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:When you connect with someone and you, and you experienced that I think, I dunno if happiness is the word, but it's like very, it's like a type of sustenance. It's very like you feel it acutely alive, you feel like alive in the moment, you know? Um, so I think connection and relationships like people who smoke you out or people who make you think or challenge you or making people can make you happy, they can also make you miserable honestly. Um, and then, uh, the flow states thing where I'm realizing like I've had a string of interests that I spiral down rabbit holes in, in guitars, one of them. And I'm happy for that. But like, you know, like you, you're like this to like the yoga thing, but you're a musician but you're also reading a bunch of stuff. And so I think we're, we're seekers of like expansion and flow states, you know, um, experiences of all, like it's nice to go onto a mountain top, feel really timing and feel like you are a blip in the radar of this like timeless landscape that's just been there for inconceivable amounts of time. And changing that does something, it's a relative experience of yourself to something that far exceeds you in it's, it gives you a type of context that like illuminates like a taste of Aternity. It illuminates like the scale of existence in relative, in your relative point in this massive almost going conceivable scale existence. That's the thing that produces happiness. Um, I like, I like human endeavors like
Speaker 1:okay,
Speaker 4:creative people, smart people, anything like that. I get to watch a sick and a movie or listen to sick new music or see someone do a skateboarding trick and you're like, what the, you know what I mean? Or
Speaker 5:it feels like magic when you watch it a little bit. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Anything that shows me like, wow, humans are awesome. I'm like, dude, check out this dancer. You will never believe how this person can move
Speaker 5:watching dancers. Yeah. Do you see a while back with a side note, like there is a, if you haven't seen ours, find it and send it to, there's this group of guys like on the subway in New York and they just like throw a boombox on. Then they have a video and they're just like, you know, using like, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the handles and everything as like, they're like doing all this bad ass breaking and like,
Speaker 6:and almost like holding hands and it's almost like holdings and stuff. But they're like, they like let each one guy go and then all of a sudden like they all go slow motion and like, and you're like, wait, what did it slow down? And like they're like right back into it.
Speaker 5:Speaking of human achievement, I'm just so impressed that where we've got with like kind of the hip hop like break dance, like I mean those a jabber walkie guys like a while back with blew up. And I like just seeing that like illusion come to the light.
Speaker 4:It's uh, yeah, it's been fun. Stuff like that. So I guess like, but I'm realizing recently that you cause the holidays just passed and stuff and it's like, relationships I think are very important. That can be an extreme source of happiness. Like hopefully they are a lot of relationships bring people down. Um, but the good ones can just be so mean. You know what I mean? Cha Transforming, right? Yeah. I'm like totally like this necessary focal point in your life. Like, and it's a mirror for who you are too. So the right relationships can like show you like the best version of yourself or hold you accountable or push you to be better or to make you want to strive. You know what I mean? Like so
Speaker 5:helps us see, help you see the things that you can't see. Like it's, it's like just out of peripheral range a lot of times that, but when somebody mirroring you in that way, like he got something over here, you know, like, and be like, wait, what? No, no, no. It's right. It's right. You don't see it. I know because it's like a part of who you are, but I'm going to show that they can show you. They can see it, you know me and we can do it for other people. We do it all the time. We were like, did you know that you do this thing or like you're like this and these sip near, oh, I wasn't aware. I couldn't, I mean I had no awareness of that, you know?
Speaker 4:Yeah. Which is, you know, another slice of relativity because you are who you are relative to other people. You know what I mean?
Speaker 5:Yeah. I was just gonna say that like it snapped when cause relationship and real let relativity or essentially, you know,
Speaker 4:same word the same time. Whereas I grouped similar root concept, endlessly expand spending Einstein's general theory of relativity to just getting anything we want it to be. But there's a continuum in that. It's funny how persistent that idea is even without trying to measure velocity, you know, it's kind of like,
Speaker 6:well it's, we're, we're in a world full of it.
Speaker 5:We don't like, it's that, that basic concept of you don't, you have two, uh, two spheres and you don't, you can't, it's hard to tell which one's moving in relationship to the other one. Right. And when you can't in blank space. Yeah. There's this place with you add a third one. Then there's another, there's another point of, you know, you know, yeah. Relationship, right to each other. And then there's like all these different ways of measuring things and through, uh, and that's, that's just to confirm our earliest memories. Like, we have this, we, we come from the parent, you know, the parental unit, you know, the mother or father or whatever, oxygen your child
Speaker 4:relative to mother and your child rolling.
Speaker 5:Yeah. All these were relative relational sequences begin to happen. And that's, and we get all these little mirrors and then there's the conditioning that comes from trying to be what other people want us to be. That's an interesting development.
Speaker 4:This is why I think like, we're at an interesting, at an interesting point because I was talking about what reality would allow you to even yeah. Be like, you know, I can be a shaman anymore. Really. I mean, I could try.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 4:But like there was a point in some cultures where it was perfectly legitimate to be like a member of the shop in class and like, Whoa, I'm just speaking like they're, you know, I'm not going to like, yeah. But what I'm saying is like we are expanding the scope of what is available to humans to them even be you can be, I mean dude, you know, if you get into the whole Kurzweil sort of like similarities that was like, yeah, it's crazy break free of the biological. Like it's like, so am I a man or am I a woman, am I straight, am I gay? Am I a number of like am I any of them? These things, cause we were starting to dissolve what used to be kind of like very real boundaries and then we're pushing those limits further to where now you know, you can be a member of new communities, you can be a participant in new identities, new. I knew there was just new shit for humans to eat and be and it's, it's a very strange thing to think about that going back in time. And that narrowed towards like, yeah, yeah. Well that's, sport hasn't been invented yet, so you can't be that right, right. He,
Speaker 5:we're not at an age where you can be an Instagram ass model and have millions of followers. Right. Very thankful for that. I mean, speaking of things that you can be, that you could not be just a mere 20 years ago. Yep. Slipper, not possible. You could not get paid to sit to lounge around, take pictures of your ass and yoga pants and yet or not. Yeah. You know, and, and, and post it and like, and that'd be kind of how, how you subsist in life.[inaudible] you know, like, and I circling back though, I would say I would argue that you are a shaman to a degree because, because of the,
Speaker 6:the, the dedication to a focus because what you have to share is, uh, you know, a part of and trying to point at and express the unnatural bowl, you know, and the showman we historically and a lot of cultures was, was really the one that just, uh, had some plant medicine knowledge through one way or another through defining or whatever, and was able to kind of be that conduit between heaven and earth in a way, and offer a different perspective. And you offer a really unique perspective that like, I mean, I remember when you first broke out, I mean 10 years ago, I was thinking about this the other day actually because it's been just about 10 years since we, uh, since we first met. And, um, and I remember the feeling the first time I actually watched all your videos, right? Like in the, and I was like, when I was at Matthew Mann peg and I was like, dude. And it was fun. I think, uh, I know it was you that the interviews made Ameesha that's right. Like I remember that, but, um, I forget even how I, how I connected with you, but, uh, I might have just emailed you through one of the, the things at the time and uh, and, but I remember like watching a, you play that night up in Seattle at the, uh, it's El cortisone or something. It was on like the dredge tour or something. Yeah, yeah. Remember that shot out to dredge. Yeah. Right. Um, but I, I had this distinct feeling like that night like I had like, and I get that's part of something I'm still trying to figure out. Like I have premonition about things. Some things are obvious. You can do the math and it's like I don't, it's not really a premonition, but some things just like have this a greater sense of something. Right. And you're like, I don't know exactly how I'm, how I know this, but I kind of know this. And there was a thing that I felt in that, uh, in that performance, I was like, I was just like, number one, I was like super stuck to be at this point in history where this was happening. Right. It's cool. You know, like when I was looking on stage and it's like, fuck okay, we've had all this other stuff you've had all the metallic is and, and much sugar. It in so many ways was like the apex for, for so many things like being sick because we didn't know that was ever going to do exist. When you know, ride the lightning came out, you know, like that, that didn't make those, you could have predicted that FEMA should go though. And then so then there's some become, so let somebody like yourself comes, buck comes along and says, oh, you know, I'm synthesizing all these different things and then, and I'm giving back in a different way. And I just, I saw this different thing that night and I just like, that was really interesting to, uh, to see somebody actualize anytime I, somebody does something that I'm just like, like you're talking about, does the kick flip, does the dance, does that? Like it takes you and helps you see something differently and blows your mind to a point where you're like, dude, you might be magic. You might not actually be, I dunno if we're the same type of type of human or whatever. Right. Like you pushed it to a degree where we're, we're, we're not sure anymore. Which is really, it's really interesting. And it's like, it's a, it starts creating a new neural pathways when, cause when somebody else does it, they show you what's possible. Yeah. And then, then, then it's like, it lets everybody else, I'm just, that's that kind of classic scenario where if, if, if everybody's all uptight and holding down at tamping down in motion in your life and one person comes along and it's just a free spirit and it's sharing and open, you're like, wow, I didn't even know that was possible. That you can live a life that way, you know, be that expressive when we didn't, it gives permission. This is, I don't have to be like those other people and I don't have to do it that way to see a new way. So it sparked creativity, sparks, all kinds of, uh, interesting copycats too. Like, that's, that's the thing I've noticed too, that you, you, and the way you have a Badass dude, there's like a whole Legion of, of folks that, that you have influenced now. Yeah. What does that feel like?
Speaker 4:Uh, it feels really cool, especially when they go beyond what I've done that seen, I've seen certain players.
Speaker 6:What would you say that has done something like that? You have a point of reference?
Speaker 4:Uh, I mean, this is guy Groupon.
Speaker 9:MMM.
Speaker 4:Who's doing a lot of like some techniques that I kind of like stumbled upon and he's, I think he's studying at Berkeley, but he's doing this, the surrealist, this is his band name. Okay. I'll, I'll send you some links, but it's a,
Speaker 9:okay,
Speaker 4:it's really cool because I think he has his own sense of harmony and his own sort of like, um, sensibilities and aesthetic. But I think I might've influenced him to, to really fiercely defined that and take it to this like does, he does a lot of beautiful harmony that isn't like super placeable. It isn't simply like major or simply monitor. It's like this in between space and he's asking of the guitar, new sounds and textures. So he's doing like a lot of harmonics with the right hand and put it in our page. Created like context stuff you haven't heard before. It's like a crystal rain drops and so, you know, it's like, but he's getting these sounds. Yeah. I'm just like, okay. This is that like sort of like he's pushing the bounds of the is pushing the edge of, cause you can't call it a certain genre. Right. But you feel it and it's almost like, it's like a new expression. So it's cool. But yes, technique wise and he's using more than six strings and you know what I mean? So there was some relation to what I do, but either there's a lot of, there's a lot of people. Um, I mean I feel like I'm on the spot, but there's tons of players here. I don't know. I'm not a singular influence. Like the people that I would maybe name, I think I might be one of many influences that they have. But I think just the extended range community in general and then certain techniques in wanting to get good at like certain techniques and harmony. I think I definitely was a guy who like, part of my whole bag is like, hey, you guys seen this technique before and have you heard this type of harmony and look at the end. You know what I mean? That's very different than if you're just the van Halen Fan. And he was like a a huge explosion. But I think those explosions continue to happen. So whatever influence I have yet, it's like, it's really wonderful to see that it isn't just me as an anomaly, but it actually is inspired other people to like also kind of explore new territory on guitar.
Speaker 6:Dude, I agree. And I have to say that I think that before you kind of like launched onto the scene that first record and started hitting the touring circuit in that way. Uh, pretty sure that there was like, there was that moment where it's like, dude ain't screaming guitars like desert only from a ship, like only for them and like, and and a couple of like, it's kind of like just Genti type bands that weren't really expressing in any type of real melodic way. And then like, and then you showed up in the end it was like, okay, well now it's a it from a like a perspective of a manufacturer because I worked for, I've worked in the business for so long and then seeing the trends ebb and flow, I'm like, okay, h train guitar. Totally saying it's going to be, it's going to be a thing now. Like, like with, with Towson and Javier doing this, like, you know, and it has, it's exploded it listing the things that we were all like, oh, it's a fad. It's totally going to go away. No,
Speaker 4:well that's funny because the industry's perspective isn't excellent metric for what, what sticks in the concrete sentence. Right? So it's like the eight string Ivan has was making the mainstream on a production level you could buy, but no one else really was. And I remember the subsequent years, it's like, oh dude, DSP has mainstream. Oh Dude. Like checked her, hasn't mentioned, oh dude.
Speaker 6:Well, you know what I mean?[inaudible] I watched the whole thing was the same like, well when you, when you hit you plan some super custom did you did, they weren't, you weren't, you wouldn't get an off the shelf thing.
Speaker 4:No. You have no real off the shop Conklin, that was boutique stuff
Speaker 6:for Conklin. I remember like
Speaker 4:Rhonda Russell validated the fucking cotton. He was
Speaker 6:this one. It's a dean or no, they did not like he's been the dean for a long time and he just sends orange p Ormsby is doing, they're about to drop the new rest Cooley signature. Oh, they just, they just, uh, it's just that it's just a sketch, like they haven't actually like show them that show retire yet, but it's like a good way to close to the 27th fret fanned fret. Uh, you know, super close pickups. It's a hype machine.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Machine style that looks, looks like way. I mean, I, I've been to other guitars were pretty cool, but this one's bill.
Speaker 4:Yeah. He, the rest of the is definitely concerned with playing the notes fast and having an instrument that facilitates that. So, yeah, no, so it's still evolving. But there's an interesting evolution with bands like Sean and Olivia who are almost like metal isn't the substrate of like what they're doing. So like with animals as leaders in the periphery and like tesseract and between the buried and he hits like progressive musicianship, but metal is the ecosystem. Right? But now I'm seeing bands, young great guitar players, but metal is in the foundation of where they're working. They're working in a whole
Speaker 5:dude, that Guy Josh Martin and little tiny. Oh Man, I love what they do. They do kill. That whole band kills me. Funnel in sewn on so many levels and a such sweet people. Like if you ever get a chance to hang out with little tybee, especially in Atlanta, do it. I should have been the great people. Super Uber Creative. Uh, Brock Scott, the singer, uh, he does, he does a lot of like the kind of content, content, theoretical design. Cause he's a, he's a uh, um, a film major and like he, he's the one that, anything that looks kind of like super high end filling me, that's him. Like, he's the one that's putting all that together, right? Like he is a master in like he's got all these really cool storylines for the next album thing. He was explaining to me, I'm not even going to say anything about it cause it's going to be so cool like the way they, they drop it. But I'm kind of uh, in the way that, you know, in the way that, uh, Devin Townsend did like Ziltoid type stuff. Like they've got their own kind of like concept story thing that they're going to do. It's really neat. But I back to the guitar, like Josh just being a guy that doesn't really use as much drive, uh, has an h string guitar and is using all these different techniques, uh, that the actually shoot songs like, like lyrical songs that are, you know, I consider the prog folk or something, you know, like potentially an eight string electric guitar in that.
Speaker 4:See, and that's not even like, I don't know how to explain it. Sometimes you see an a string guitar and it's all about the fact that it has the extremes, right? This happened with extended Greens, like a band like Korn. You are acutely aware that the guitars had more than six drinks and we're tuned blow because virtually every moment you're kind of,
Speaker 5:we're being variety. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I think part of the industry perspective you were talking about where like, oh, the eight string thing, there was a, there's a sentiment that it's like, oh that's a fat and it's maybe because of the people at the time of use using it. We need the mentoring will sugar. Like you're aware that their guitars have more than six strings and they're tuned blow and that is central to the sound. But you listen a little tiny and there are moments where he's in the upper register. You just don't, it's not beating you over the had that it's a guitar that goes to like, you know, as low as the base.
Speaker 6:If I just played that band for anybody is that whether you play guitar and I, you wouldn't be shocked by the guitar playing in it. Like it fits, it fits. It's like they're a cohesive band that uh, that dislike rights for the song still. Like, and I, I find my, because I would put the music on, listen to it, and you know, of course, part of my analytical mind goes to wanting to pick out and listen to what the technique is on the guitar. But so often I find myself forgetting about that and getting lost in the song because it, they're playing so
Speaker 4:well, the music is good enough so it escapes the novelty trap. That's another criticism that would be like, hmm, you know, kind of thrown out the extended range guitars. Like, oh, that's a novelty. I still like encounter traditionalist. They're like, why do you need eight strings? I'm like, if you have to ask yourself that question, you're not the type of person who
Speaker 6:yeah, you're not. Do you know what I mean? It's not really your thing,
Speaker 4:Eh, there's, it's so funny, like how arbitrary boundaries can be. I mean, it's kind of like, well, they're the folk tradition of seven string guitar, like in Russia and in Brazil, or the loop had 10 strings. So it's kind of like, well, you've been told that the guitar only has six streams in this tuned. The eight, four 40 and, and anything else is like, well what are you doing? But it's also like I've seen bass players, I haven't brewer and Victor Wooten do things that I'm like, I have to learn how to do that. I wasn't like, oh, that's a big, so I'm not going, I'm like, he has strings and frets and hands and I have strings and frets in hands and we're making music. And so anyone was like, why aren't you date strings? I'm like, Oh, you're working within like a very narrow like perception of what the guitar should do and you're probably not. So that was really gonna maybe you'll innovate him on the sixth string and that's fine. But the question illuminates, do me that like there's some types of people who are definitely more traditional and that's fine. I'm just not one of them.
Speaker 6:Well, and I mean to be, to be fair, it's, uh, for the average person that doesn't have the, the, the, the, the vantage point that we have as far as like, knowing that the primary players in this scene having a, a feeling or a concept of like who is out doing what, you know, with the things, the average person that just knows about led Zeppelin and ACDC and they want to get into guitar. And that's a real question, right? Like why, why do you need more than six? What did Jimmy Page, yeah, I did it cause I could hear it. I can hear it both ways. And here it is, uh, you know, w w why, you know, like that doesn't, I'm, my mind is blown and like, why do you need an extra strings? Dude, that's lame because the guitars and that, you know, you need to know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, see that's, that's how you flip it and say, flip it. Yeah. Well, uh, the, one of the other thing I like to talk about is, we've talked about a lot of artists actually on, uh, on this like conversation, but I'm curious if there's anything right now that you're into music wise that, uh, this like kind of maybe obscure, like lesser known that you'd want to shout out that should be better known cause you're just kind of blown away by it.
Speaker 4:I mean this guitar player and Twan, okay. Young French guy who does, it's almost like, sounds like baroque classical. Well he uses a pick and he plays on like he's, he's collaborated with some like sort of, you know, Django Gypsy jazz sorta guys, but he has an album of solo compositions and arrangements and it's just him and it's masterful level counterpoint and arrangement and like it's mind experiencing, it's localized within like classical harmony and aesthetic, but he's doing it all on a six string and he's executing things that like when we were talking about fear earlier, Bro, this guy is, and it's beautiful. It's like virtuosic level, you know, but it's also beautiful because a lot of times, um, virtuosos I don't know, on guitar, they stand out to me in the middle space and it's like a lot of dynamically, there's not much going on. A lot of times it's fast and it's heavy and it's aggressive and that's why you're playing fast. Right? But when you hear like someone like use dynamic in the middle of a 32nd note running, or do you hear the, there's such a huge range because there's no distortion. And so now it's virtually an acoustic instrument and so there's so much more detailed translate it. Um, it's kind of a, on that virtual os level in the classical sense, where do you hear like a solo cellist and you're like, good on wheat. You're like, there's so much detail and consideration to, to dynamic and all these things. So, and I feel like he's in his early twenties.
Speaker 5:Did you say that he primarily plays of the pick and not, yeah. Okay. So that's different for a classical style player because there's very few
Speaker 4:[inaudible] it's, it's insane. He's, um, I call it brain food cause there's some music you listened to you and it's like just so expansive. Yeah. You got to hear the song countless times to even get to get the, and then like you keep listening, keep noticing more. It's one of those things where it's like, and like you're on board, you're not passively listening for like if you tune in that there's a lot for you. So he's phenomenal. But I think there's been, it's like bad luck hiatus KOD who like, I think napalm is like one of my favorite songwriters ever. Oh, did you get
Speaker 6:to hang out with her? Yeah, I recently just met her and hung out with her right before she had her surgery.
Speaker 4:Unfortunately. You hear about that. I did like, she seems to really be like battling that with like a ton of like and, but she's, she's like kind of a magical person than me. It's total, you know what I mean? Like she's super manager, one of my favorite bands on the planet. He's one of my favorite bands. And even if she didn't make me like her sense of personal style and like her personal story was like this pet bird now telling me he loves her. He just flew to her one day and then she was in a park needs just like,
Speaker 6:it's out of the blue. She got her ass show up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think it might've been. So it's not like a wild bird, it looks like one of the, like one of these tropical birds that like we've now used as pets or whatever. But I think I'm remembering the story correctly. Like she just like in kind of this burden and like it's like her companion and he totally loves her and it's funny to see this relationship. She's just like enchanted that I have so much like love and respect for her. So yeah. Oh that's cool. That's good that that, that one comes up on your radar. Yeah. But I also think people like, this might sound funny, but I like Drake quite a bit, you know? Yeah. And I mean lately I've been listening to a lot of like top 40. You hit, you hit for me to the carters. Uh, I'm wearing usually one of those songs.
Speaker 6:Yeah, that one too with the, you know, fast like a lambo that uh, that, that tune in the Uber when we're in New York. But I didn't recognize, I didn't knew, I didn't know who it was. I just, I just like put it on. I found it and started like listening to it every once in a while and still didn't know who it was. I didn't know it was a, it was like Jay z and Beyonce. Yeah. It's like, it's somebody else. I was playing it for somebody else to like, who is, who is the car is mine know like, but, but, but it's funny because her voice is obviously familiar. When I went back I was like, oh, obviously I'm like, I'm such a dollar sometimes. You like it. Do they have context? I didn't think about it.
Speaker 4:No. I got to mention Tieger and Hamas. Ian. Ah, yeah, yeah. You, you actually had, uh, mentioned him before. We mean on this list that you're asking me about what,
Speaker 6:how would you, uh, recommend checkout
Speaker 4:either mock route or below? There's a youtube video than performing mock route live. Um, and the, the shit they're doing live might rob rival what they recorded of shit. Really? Yeah. Masterful. Just some of the groups and some that oftentimes a very strong improvisational player and might, in my opinion, not have as strong of a compositional components so that they can play or anything, but they're not, they're not writing from a human rhapsody. Right? Right. Then there are guys who really merge improvisation with some structure and so there's really cool patterns, really cool grooves and memorable shit. And then there's moments where they're just like flowing over and Tigran is one of these guys who does that, but then he takes it even further because as a pianist, he's referencing progressive metal in the sugar, specifically with some of the rhythms, some of the rhythms you've only heard my sugar do really, but it's like grand piano. And then he's taking that even further because you know he's Armenian and I think there's some folk harmony that's entering that space and it's one of the most unique sounds. And it's also like super compelling on tons of levels and a super original. So Teagan is like
Speaker 2:dope sick. That's a good list. Yep. Yep.
Speaker 6:Karbala listen[inaudible] dear Kilz, I remember I found Karbach like in like 99 or nine or 2000 like I was running a metal. Uh, I was the metal buyer for tower records and cheap. So I had my own little metal section paid to buy metal cds to like buy and stock that medical cause like normally tower actually independent on was that, it was like regional where this regional like wait, put the boss there, we'll let you do. And I came in with such a metal head and my early twenties and I was like very snooty about it too. So it's like, ah. I was always looking, trying to find this shit. Nobody knew about them. So when the metal kids would come in and be like, oh, you're like that, whenever you should listen to that. So you know, and just be the Tova snooty like almost Jack lack character, you know, like in high fidelity where like it's like you're not, now I can even sell this to you because you're, you're, you're not, you're not, you're not worthy of it or whatever. But um, but my found car bomb back then I found a, was it Kansas Derya to like the early stuff like pockets of self developed Maddix yes. That's one of my favorite[inaudible] hundred percent density.
Speaker 4:That's still got a huge, they pushed the boundary to meet, they were there. Not even the genre, I mean it was localized in the metal, but if there was parts of trumpet and like yeah, swing and like the pattern is like, eh. And it's funny, I don't talk about them that often, but they were like a huge influence as far as like, what can you do? What are the rules? They aren't done. They're like, fuck all the rules. All the, all the rules.
Speaker 6:Yeah. That made me talk. That's brain food for me too. Cause like when, when when they incorporate not only like elements of east coast hip hop but like the, the New York jazz scene in Brooklyn, you know, really localized, they've always been like a localized bands and was, they've toured but it's like, like their music is about where they live, you know so much. Even the last record when they came back, it's still haven't heard that it's great. It's a great record it but it still feels like it's localized in a way like lyrically and just kind of, yeah,
Speaker 4:I don't know if they were part of a real like before the internet bands have to grow organically in the local scene in the now like grow to regional and then maybe national and international and maybe press can help break you quicker. But
Speaker 7:bands like candy area there, it's like a New York sound and there like a New Yorker
Speaker 4:culture and it's part, looks like it's probably an attractable at this point. But now they're their vans that like maybe the members of like they put out an album. I'd never been in the same room together and then it goes kind of viral. It's a very different sort of thing, but it used to be like super organic and vocalized and you'd be like, yeah, dude, there was New York hardcore, there's like the Florida death metal. There's like you go to southern California and there's like
Speaker 7:younger 18 visions and your trainers and your freaking, you know what I mean? You're in it. I remember touring the u s pre internet days and like
Speaker 4:in the hardcore scene in every scene was the scene in different, like there was certain styles in the world, hardcore kids, but you'd have different sounds, you know, regionally. Do you know what I mean? Montreal has produced a lot of tech debt and a lot of, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 6:Yeah. And the whole Seattle sound right?
Speaker 4:Scandinavia obviously with metal. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty interesting. What a trip.
Speaker 6:Well, there's there, there's that relativity thing, tears, you know?
Speaker 4:Hmm.
Speaker 6:In relationship to where you come from and well, who you're influenced by in your locality. Like it means a lot. It did. It meant it meant a lot more before.
Speaker 4:No, the Internet is local.
Speaker 6:We're a homogenized. It's like
Speaker 7:if you want to learn guitar now and you just go on Google,
Speaker 4:it's like God help you. It's like all the, all the things that are available to you now. Mainly scale. Okay. Do you find it okay finally. Got It. Like it's just like crazy.
Speaker 6:Yeah. You didn't have high def up close a footage of Eddie van Halen in Jimi Hendrix available at your fingertips. Either went out to the show or maybe years down the road they released something as in TV came in, you know?
Speaker 4:And how about this? Someone learning guitar today is like, has accessible to them. All of the great, all the greatest players. And it's kind of like at a fingertip and like at nausea like,
Speaker 7:but I remember I didn't hear anything but I'm staying until I'd been playing guitar for like five or six years.
Speaker 4:And it was, I think I went into a music store and they w the guy knew I was like kind of getting good and it was like recommending stuff. So there was an instructional tape and he was on it. But I'd never heard sweet picking or neoclassical like because it wasn't on the classic rock radio. It wasn't on like alternative rock radio. It wasn't on MTV. And those were the only places you could get it. I mean if you're a 12 year old living in Gaithersburg, Maryland, like I'm sure there was some magazines and if I was super cool and knew the right record store, I can get some magazine that have, but I didn't have an older brother who grew up in the hair metal days. You could be like, Bro, you got to listen to fucking
Speaker 6:yeah. You know. So it will say that's the caveat is having an older brother, our friend's older brother or dad or somebody. Yeah. Somebody that can pass it. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But now it's like oh like an algorithm or recommended to you.
Speaker 6:Oh yeah. Which strangely enough, even though it is more cause cause you know I, I lived and breathed and worked in record stores for years. It was my way of
Speaker 10:uh,
Speaker 6:staying true. Like I didn't wanna I didn't, I worked at Shit. And a ton of shitty jobs for a long time. All kinds of different jobs. And then it was like, I don't want to do anything but like meat stuff that has to do with music, you know? And if I get a discount on my music and have it didn't, so I stay in that, in that realm. And
Speaker 10:uh,
Speaker 6:it just, uh, it just, it kind of like kind of felt like,
Speaker 10:mmm,
Speaker 6:you did there. That was part of a community, right? Like you would go to that place and if you didn't know what you were looking for, there was somebody that worked there, you'd be like, you know, looking for something like this. And I have all these conversations in my left before I ever worked at a music store. I remember going in and there's one guy, frank, that worked at Camelot Chico. I'm like, Dang, I really left testament now. What's new? Like it's got anything. Thrashy maybe like, you know, check it out. Slipknot, this new bands like slipknot, they're like, yeah, it's nine people. I remember the day that I found out about stuff, not because there's a Camelot music and he was like, they all look crazy. It's kind of weird, but like it's American. It's a good record. I think you're gonna like it and it's catchy too. And I'm like, what? I'm like, yeah, it's like almost like corn and fresh. Like if you took like and kind of thrashed up corn more, you get slipknot and I was like, that's a good little break. I was like, all right, that's cool.
Speaker 4:No, I've been starving for that type of dynamic too where you have like kind of a local expert, like kind of like hipping you to new things. Now it's kind of like for fans of, you know like Spotify is going to be plugged into an algorithm that will just like endlessly link you to new things. There's a new dynamic emerging where people don't even know who they're hearing because they just put it on like, you know, you know
Speaker 6:Pandora radio. Yeah. And then there's
Speaker 4:all these artists being thrown at them and it's kind of back when I'm using the way, because it's all curated so well that it works. And maybe, I don't know, some people stop and pause and see who it is, but I've talked to a lot of people there. There's there, there's so much music available now and it's being, it's being delivered through like this automated system, right? Where an algorithm will take your preferences and just feed you what it thinks you'll like. And there are people who don't even, they don't know who they're listening to or they can't really name the wealth of new music, but they're listening to it. They just don't know it's this person or that person. They know their favorites, but there's stuff they're hearing that they fuck with that. They're like, ah.
Speaker 6:But that's, that's kind of like radio that happened in the radio days too. I know he didn't have the information always available too. But there's, I mean, I haven't wrote my mom. I have no so many people around me that, I don't know. I heard that song on the radio. Who is it? Who is this one of the desk that Dah Dah, Dah, Dah. You know like mom, like wherever you're listening, she's listening to the popular music, but she didn't know what it is. So they still kind of exist in a way, right? Yeah.
Speaker 4:I guess what I'm describing, I had a friend who was into electronic music and he would always know the producer, whoever he was listening to. And then a few years later I hung out with them and he's like, dude, I don't know. I can't keep track of all this stuff. And he just puts on a station and he likes most of it cause he's into house. Right. And so it is what it is. But he used to be so new like cause you have to, you, if you're a passive listener, there be the radio and he might not know who's on the radio, but whatever your collection was, was shit that you consciously bought. Right now you'll have to consciously buy anything per se. So there are people, the idea of owning music, I mean have you thought about this? There's that. It's like, what do you mean owning? And I it went and went and stayed as it was like, okay, well you would own, in my case, it'd be cds and you'd have one of his leather bound books that had rows and rows of cds and it'd be like super cool and God forbid it got stolen, someone broke into your car and stole your seat. That right happened to me, right? Because all the music you can listen to is like physically bound with them. The leather, you know, walls of this book. And then it translates to digital media where you could have memory that can hold x amount of songs. And so you'd have a collection of music on your iPod or on the cases, or if you were Napster person, you'd have a hard drive with music on it. And I remember talking to a guy who worked in tech and he's just like, yeah, I don't even think people are going to have that anymore. And these right now, everyone's streams, everything. And the thought of owning a saw, like what are we even talking about owning? So you own some ones and Zeros that you can choose to play on this device as opposed to playing it, accessing it from the cloud at any point in time from any point in space. Like where's my iPod? It's not a thing people say anymore. It's like all the music that thing may, is ex invisibly hovering around you and idea of owning it is kind of niche.
Speaker 6:We're curators now, we're like the best of us. Even the worst I guess. But like, and that's how I view myself at this point. Cause I uh, I make playlists for this, for this podcast enough for every episode. So like that's something that will happen for this[inaudible] all the things that we list, you know? Um, but I make for Yoga, I make playlists all the time and I'm Spotify, I'm a Spotify holiday. Like I, I pay for premium and I use the shit out of it. I have numbered, I have over 50 playlist over the last year and a half or two years of, of teaching yoga that are numbered. And I go back and it's different mixes for different kind of hot and sweaty yoga things. Right. And, uh, and because I've been curating music for the general public that goes to those classes,
Speaker 5:I was already into pop anyway and I like hip hop and the light, you know, but then it changes. It's like, Oh, the directive now is to like have a positive mental attitude for the most part. You know, I want to have it be dynamic thing and I'm like end up like curating through all this like yoga music to that kind of bookings it and puts a little meditation spin on it here. And then there's all these different things around curating and I'm, I'm absolutely in love with the scenario at this point because I all I have to take as my phone, right? Yeah. But at the same time when I'm at home, uh, and I'm really a fan of I vinyl, I have a nice record player and I, and I have a small collection and it's, it's like the ability to unplug from that and not have a computer on at all in the house. You have it all turned off and just have that and be like, yeah,
Speaker 4:it allows you to focus. It's kind of like, this is where an analogy, but it's like with dating you can like swipe and swipe and make these matches and the have like an endless string of like these connections or you can be like localized and focus on one person and I feel like with a fixed number of vinyl records in a physical space, in your living room with your CT record player, you're turning on all the noise and you're choosing from one of the 20 records you have and you're putting that on and the next track isn't going to magically be a completely different record. It's going to be the body of work that's on Beth physical records sitting on that player and it's a nice contrast to the look, the boundless availability, you know, like I'm a person who suffers from option process like Sam. I sometimes I do better with less, like give me less options. I like menus that are small, you know what I mean? Like
Speaker 5:oh man, I just want to get it done. I suppose just for the amp, you know, like I always use the analogy like I, you know, Mesa boogie has made some cool stuff, but they're the one amp company you can always count on the, has like 20 switches on it that you don't necessarily, it's really remark like, I mean, it's great, it's phenomenal. But like, you know, I've always gravitated to a simpler ambulance, you know, simpler set up, you know, didn't have a little less options. I just wanted to send, you know, to tweak it and get it a little bit at my place. But yeah, but you're right.
Speaker 10:Uh,
Speaker 5:it's, it's, it's nice to, to kind of let it all just fade into the back and just put a record on and listen to a full album. This is the thing about the album is the physical touching of the cave. You know, like the, the, the fold and like pulling it out of the sheath and putting it on, you have to, you have to actually be that committed is you're going to physically, you know, you touch something other than just press a button and walk away from it. And let it like curate for you.
Speaker 4:And I think that it reminds me of how we are not purely just like the thoughts and ideas in our head that the biological reality, what we are, we do love tactile, we liked sensory input. We do relate, you know, the smell of a book or the artwork of a, of a cover or the repetitive sort of action of like placing the needle and saying the thing on and then you sit and then you hear some noise and then you hear the song. All these things are, to me that's part of like, you know we're, we were talking about like are you your body? Are you the other thing? But he can't, you can't actually separate them as your, the totality of like the fact that you are a part of this physical world even though you're mostly space and you are mostly thoughts. But then you also are like men sex or good food or a joint or whatever. There's these things that are totally biological hacks that are like on the shortlist of the best shifts you can subjectively experienced. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like that's what it is. Speaking of which, that's[inaudible] well, I think we should probably capital wherever this might be the longest one we went in for.
Speaker 3:Okay.